Manual for Remote Control Box DF50? Neutral microswitch issue

[Elliot Griffin]

Does anyone know where to find a manual for reassembly of a 1999 DF50 remote control box, 67200-99E11-0EP? I have the engine service manual, which doesn't seem to include it. Thanks

I was trying chart 12 on service manual page 3-46, and my ECM is saying C8 is always 5V, which points to a bad neutral switch, the switch on the engine is okay, so I opened up the remote control box. Either I broke the microswitch in the process, or it was broken. Either way, I'm struggling to put it back together without damaging the replacement microswitch. The way this thing is wired all the control box leads run to the engine without any test junctions I can find. The microswitch has two bullet connectors I could test at.

[redlowrey]

Does anyone know where to find a manual for reassembly of a 1999 DF50 remote control box, 67200-99E11-0EP? I have the engine service manual, which doesn't seem to include it. Thanks

I was trying chart 12 on service manual page 3-46, and my ECM is saying C8 is always 5V, which points to a bad neutral switch, the switch on the engine is okay, so I opened up the remote control box. Either I broke the microswitch in the process, or it was broken. Either way, I'm struggling to put it back together without damaging the replacement microswitch. The way this thing is wired all the control box leads run to the engine without any test junctions I can find. The microswitch has two bullet connectors I could test at.

''''''Mate you are barking up the wrong tree, both the neutral switches are in series with each other. If the switch in the console is open the engine won't crank, if the switch on the engine is open the engine won't crank, also the ecu will not see 0 volts on pin 5, when in reverse or forward 2.5 volts, battery voltage when cranking. What do you mean the ecm is saying c8 is always 5 volts.

[Elliot Griffin]

you're right, I need guidance.

It's a 1999, ECM has 5 connectors (A-E). C8 is neutral switch wire, and can either be 0 or 5 bolts. It looks like 44 pin connector and 0/2.5/6-12 volt scheme were introduced in 2001, but don't apply to my 1999 ECM.

I replaced the microswitch and passed the troubleshooting chart 12. Disregard what I said about always 5V, it now has 0 volts when it's supposed to. I wasn't doing that test properly. The good news is that while messing with the control box, I realized that I may have had it together wrong. There are two different grooves which the warm up lever can engage, I may have had that wrong. This is why I need a manual for the remote control box. Generally speaking, should the throttle just barely crack open when warm up lever is up? Similarly, should throttle just barely open for full reverse? I need to test run it again and post results. During rebuild, I didn't mess with any of the throttle linkage jam nuts or CPT switch, so at least I have that going for me.

Status from last fire, prior the breaking the microswitch: Engine can't idle without warm up lever on. If I hot restart without warm up lever or if I turn off warm up lever, rpm and oil pressure drop and fluctuate, eventually oil light comes on and engine shuts off

My neighbor suggested replacing 10-40 with 10-50 oil, but why bother if its not going to help stabilize idle?

A friend suggested spraying brake cleaner in different areas of intake to find an air leak. I'm okay with trying anything at this point. Maybe there's an air leak, but I RTV'd the new manifold cushion and throttle body gasket. There are no codes being thrown. I guess IAC valve and silencer could be contributing to issue and I should clean them. I still haven't tried computer SDS IAC or injector checks.

[redlowrey]

Obviously there must be a problem if the engine won't idle without the warm up leaver applied. Does the engine run smooth with the warm up lever on or is it lumpy, and who set the valve timing and the bucket clearance on the valves up for you. Remove the iac and connect battery voltage and a ground on it and see if you can blow through it, plus you will her it operate if it is not faulty. If the engine is running smooth with the warm up leaver applied, remove the rubber plug in the throttle body and turn the idle air screw out two turns, then see if the engine will idle on its own. That oil pressure is low, was it a new block or a second hand one, and Usually an air leak on a system using a map sensor, idle will increase the rpm not drop, unless it is on an intake runner and at idle that will produce a miss on the cyl with the air leak. See if you can put up the wiring schematic so I can read it, I told you specs from 2000 on, same deal switch in console just on off, switch on engine on yours probably 0 volts neutral, 5 volts reverse or forward, or vice versa.

[redlowrey]

You should not have been able to crank or start the engine with 5 volts on c8, it should be zero. check the neutral switch on the engine, it should be closed zero ohms.

[Elliot Griffin]

Thank you!
Good news: I cold started it without warm up lever. It was unstable, so I opened the bypass air screw two turns counterclockwise. Initially the speed increased to close to 1200, but it settled down to 1000rpm with oil pressure around 23psi and idled pretty smooth. The oil pressure increased dramatically in forward or reverse at higher rpm. I didn't mess with IAC or anything else today, just did this quick test, and was happy with result.

What oil pressure do you expect at 1000rpm?

I call it franken-motor, as original motor was 1999, shortblock is a used ~2003 I picked up for $300 from a parts motor with a bad lower unit, and head is a barely used one I picked up for $200 which might be >2005 as it has the two internal anodes. I did all the work, I used most of the tappet shims which came with the replacement head. I think I switched out two shims because the clearances were slightly under spec range, and the head was missing one tappet and shim, so I borrowed a tappet from my original 1999 head. I reused the original 1999 timing chain and camshafts. Per service manual and advice of gear head friends, I turned the crankshaft several times to verify correct camshaft positions. I reused original oil pump, I couldn't break loose the Phillips screws securing rotor plate with 3/8" impact wrench. Would you recommend I use the kind of impact screwdriver that you hammer, should I ever open it up again? Thanks again, I'll post an update after first test on water.

[Elliot Griffin]

Well, first test on water didn't go so well today. It started ride up and idled okay initially. At 2k rpm in forward the engine was a little shaky, not noisy, but I could feel it in the steering wheel and see the whole engine shaking a little. At 3k rpm in forward, there was more noticeable lack of power and combustion instability. After driving around in 2-3k rpm, I shifted to neutral and oil light came on, I shut ignition off. When I returned home, I put it on hose and let it idle, oil light didn't come on. I tested the IAC valve and it seems fine. I disconnected the air hose between intake and IAC silencer while it was idling and could feel vacuum and pulsing. I heard an air suction hiss around throttle body intake, and determined it is he rubber seal upstream of throttle body, between plastic intake. I tried assembling and disassembling that, but hiss is still there. Pulling back that seal from plastic intake to let more air in doesn't seem to affect operation. I sprayed brake cleaner around the metal intake manifold, and it didn't shudder in idle.

My conclusion at this point is I have idle set too high at 1000-1100 rpm (should be 800-900) in order to stabilize idle and keep oil pressure above 15 psi. I don't know the root cause of the unstable idle. I also have a unstable power situation in gear and possible below expected power. I don't know the root cause, but am interested in the possibile contribution of the compression which, while even across cylinders, is below spec. Any suggestions?

[redlowrey]

You must have some big clearances or your oil pump is worn out too have such low pressure, or there is something wrong inside. Drain the oil and fill it with 20w 60 sj oil, at least that should give you enough pressure to keep the light off on a hot idle. Do a compression test and report back what they are, you said it was good at 1000rpm, now you are saying it has an unstable idle. When you do the test disable the ignition and have the throttle wide open, don't worry about the high idle till you get it running alright, I am still worried about the valve timing and bucket clearance, and when you pull the plugs note which cyls they come out of and their appearance.

[Elliot Griffin]

Thank you for the help. I will work on changing the oil, compression test, spark plug inspection, and post results, probably will be a couple days though.
Would 20w-50 be an acceptable alternative, as 20w-60 appears to be special order item and costs six times more?

I have SDS 8.0, but haven't used it much yet.

Should I do a power balance test by disconnecting coil pack from plug, one at a time, to check if rpm drops, potentially indicating a coil isn't working?

Based on prior compression tests, my expectation is that all 3 cylinders will be ~120 psi, #3 will be a couple psi lower than #1 and 2. Per service manual, compression should be 185-228 psi.

To clarify about idle conditions, bypass screw was originally set (in 1999) for ~850 rpm, and this setting remained until last Friday. That ~850 rpm speed was unstable after the rebuild, with warm up lever off, oil pressure would fluctuate up and down to below the 15psi switch limit. Per your advice, I opened the bypass screw two turns, which brought the idle speed up to 1000-1200 range, and oil pressure around 23 psi, again this is with warm up lever off. The speed isn't perfectly stable at this setting, but speed doesn't drop below 1000 rpm, and oil pressure doesn't drop to 15 psi, engine stays running, it tends to mostly stay around 1000 rpm, but will momentarily go up a bit toward 1100-1200. I haven't measured speed with a timing light, all measurements are from the boat tachometer. I could try to capture the rate of change using SDS if it would be helpful.

I double checked the tappet shim to cam clearances were within .18-.24mm when I was rebuilding, but I guess I could triple check it with the valve cover gasket off, correct? I would guess the risk of reusing the rubber valve cover gaskets I recently installed would be low.

I triple checked the crankshaft/camshaft alignment with chain on before mounting the oil pump case during rebuild, as friends cautioned me on this step. I don't know of any way to check the timing with power unit on holder. I assume it's too tight to put a mirror/flashlight in there with valve cover off. Any suggestions?

I still only have an expectation of oil pressure at 4000 rpm should be 44-54 psi from Service Manual, and the engine meets that. No one has provided me with an expected oil pressure at idle speed. If I apply a 10 psi/1000 rpm "rule of thumb", at 1000 rpm oil pressure should only be 14-24 psi, which the engine meets.

While I don't know the oil pump rotor clearances, I can say that I didn't have oil pressure issues prior to breakdown, and oil pump has less than 200 hours on it. On the other hand, my old shortblock #3 water jacket had a slight crack/rupture and I found a few tiny drops of water around cams on teardown of old power unit. The only sign of corrosion I found was superficial, on the knock pins of camshaft mounts, and cleaned up with a rag. The old oil looked okay, and I still have most of it in a container. The rotor plate, and the pump case in general, are kind of fragile looking, would you use one of those impact screwdrivers you hit with a hammer to loosen the stuck Phillips screws holding the rotor plate?

[Elliot Griffin]

Good news, I think... number 2 spark plug had no gap and was fouled. Not sure how I did that. Disconnecting #2 coil from plug while idling made engine sound better. After gapping and cleaning that spark plug, engine idled more stabile. Other plugs had correct .031" gap and were not fouled, but had little tan discoloration on insulator. I closed the throttle bypass screw and brought the rpm down to 1030 (not into spec range 850-950) and oil pressure at ~22 psi, warm up lever off. I then drained 10w-40 oil and replaced with 20w-50 SJ valvoline 4 stroke motorcycle oil. The oil change seemed to reduce the rpm to ~970 but didn't seem to affect oil pressure. I could probably close the bypass screw a little more but it seems like it needs some margin to the 15 psi oil pressure switch limit. On hose, I did quick rev up to 3000 rpm in forward and reverse, and oil pressure was 90 psi, which is excessive and cause for concern per manual. It also did that with 10w-40, but I didn't pay much attention until now. I guess the next step will be boat in water this weekend to see what kind of power it has. If a oil passage is truly blocked, I guess there's nothing I can do without tearing it down.

[Elliot Griffin]

Went on water today. Cold start and idle normal. WOT was 5400rpm and on plane. I never baselined before it broke down. It's a 19 foot Carolina Skiff, today was carrying about 400 pounds of people and I'd guess about another 300 pounds of misc stuff. It will go to 7000 rpm on garden hose. After running around without any lights or buzzers, reduced throttle down to 1000 rpm and oil light came on. I opened the bypass screw to idle at 1200 to keep oil pressure up, but I think what's happening in the water that doesn't happen on hose is rpm is too low in gear to keep oil pressure up. In other words, if I have idle set to 1200, when I put it into gear in water the rpm drops to 1000 and oil light comes on. Engine temp definitely affects the oil pressure.

So here is my first question, should I now tear it down and inspect the oil pump rotor clearances, or is there any additional inspections or tests I should do? (I.e. Oil detergent treatment, run flex brush or plastic string trimmer line through externally accessible oil passages)

Here is my second question, to reduce tear down effort, could I lift the power unit with minimal disassembly (of intake, linkages, etc) and remove the oil pump housing with power unit suspended in air. In other words, I'd be working on the oil pump from beneath suspended power unit. When I last tore down the engine I first stripped down the power unit, except flywheel/magneto, before lifting the block by hand, and I don't want to repeat that exercise unless necessary.

[redlowrey]

You have got two problems, an engine with low oil pressure, and low compression, you have some decisions to make no good fixing one. You may be lucky with the oil pump, the pressure reg piston might be stuck just in the bypass position dumping oil back into the sump, with the compression do you know how to do a percentage bypass test.

[Elliot Griffin]

thanks!

Did you conclude my compression is low based on 120 psi, or the WOT 5400 rpm?

I have a HFT cylinder leak down tester that I bought for the rebuild. It only uses 15psi. I tested it during rebuild, before I put camshafts on, and results were normal, like 10-20%, consistent on all three cylinders. Is that the type of check you're referring to? When I did that, air seemed to be exiting into crankcase, not valves or water passages. I could repeat it, but I'd obviously have the additional step to move each piston to TDC to close valves, and remove dipstick. This is my only experience with leakdown testing. Any other recommendations?

I have an opportunity to buy a new/unused shortblock with all gaskets for $500. I wish that deal had presented itself when I started this project! . I figure rebuilding my oil pump will be $100, +/- depending how much damage I do removing those Phillips screws. So far I've spend $800+ on this project. It's possible I could return the shortblock I have now, and maybe sell some of my spare parts and break even on the new $500 shortblock.

I did see a used powerunit for sale for $700, it was DF40 though, which would require a camshaft swap and maybe some tappet shims, probably a bad idea.

Of course, now that I have decent casings that aren't corroded, there is a professional refurb option for $1500. Sometimes these deals come with a warranty if a professional mechanic witnesses the first fire, I assume this probably equates to an additional $150+.

Decisions, decisions. One thing is for sure, I'm learning a lot. Thank you for the continued advice!

[Elliot Griffin]

thanks!

Did you conclude my compression is low based on 120 psi, or the WOT 5400 rpm?

Doesn't it seem strange that at low rpm oil pressure is too low, while at high rpm oil pressure is too high? Could a bad regulator explain both symptoms?

I have a HFT cylinder leak down tester that I bought for the rebuild. It only uses 15psi. I tested it during rebuild, before I put camshafts on, and results were normal, like 10-20%, consistent on all three cylinders. Is that the type of check you're referring to? When I did that, air seemed to be exiting into crankcase, not valves or water passages. I could repeat it, but I'd obviously have the additional step to move each piston to TDC to close valves, and remove dipstick. This is my only experience with leakdown testing. any suggestions?

[redlowrey]

No it is not strange, the oil pump is capable of making ninety psi at high rpm, but at low rpm it drops too low, that is because there is a bleed off somewhere, as I said you might be lucky and it is only a stuck pressure regulator, and the regulator valve is stuck slightly in the open position bleeding oil back into the sump and that is making the pressure low at idle. Something don't make sense with your compression, and yes a percentage leak by tester will tell you how much and where your compression is going, and doing it with out the cams is good because you don't have to lock the engine. You will hear air in the crank case that is what is going passed your rings, and it seems like you have a good seal on the valves, so where is the seventy pounds of pressure you don't have. Do the compression test again do it hot and disable the ignition and make sure the throttle is open. Note what the compression is and write it down, then do it again this time squirt some oil in the cyl each time you do the test and see how much the pressure rises with oil in the cyls.